intellectual mastubration

11:16 PM zmaddie: sorry my ichat is fucking up
11:17 PM me: ah gotcha
yeah, but it feels strange to link the two, bc marx is more dogmatic i think than weber
zmaddie: no their very much in the same vein
they're(
i mean the essential issue
is that protestants were generally upper class
for a variety of reasons
11:18 PM and thus the protestant work ethic is one that's intrinsically tied to hard work narratives that were twisted to exploit the working class
bourgeois values were made the value ofthe nation state
under freedom, fraternity, equality all that
11:19 PM because they were "rational" values that were somewhat divorced from religion itself, even though it is protestant
protestantism is kind of an intellectual backlash to the church...so in some ways its the first idea of individualism and rationality in the state
do you kind of catch my drift here?
11:20 PM me: any rand all that bullshit
gotcha i think
zmaddie: no
not ayn rand at all
me: isnt ayn rand into individualist approach to capitalism and stuff
zmaddie: oh yeah absolutely
but the critique of capitalism is a critique of individualism, at the very root of the issue
11:21 PM i mean a common way to think of it
is something like
adam smith vs. marx, engels, and weber
or something like
11:22 PM adam smith, nietzsche, vs. marx, engels, weber
you could add condorcet to smith and nietszche too i suppose
11:23 PM me: yeah
i mean
im not really citing lots of sources directly
11:24 PM basically im exploring if parnoiad and anxiety in the current era can be seen as linked to determinism and shit
and the protestant ethic and whatnot is infuenced by determinism, i believe
11:25 PM zmaddie: protestant work ethic...i suppose is influenced by determinism
me: and every imperial.capitalist power is linked to determinism is some way too
zmaddie: but maybe less so than catholicism
i'm not sure if determinism is exactly what you're looking for
i might say that they make a link between individualism and "naturalism" as it pertains to human nature
me: well there are different kinds of protestants, but yeah catholics are maybe more determinism
zmaddie: and that may or may not be deterministic
11:26 PM me: just determinism in the sense that there is a destiny or preset path which one is responsible to follow
zmaddie: the way of the world in a hobbesian sor tof thing....leviathan etc.
that could be determinism i suppose
me: man i have looked at hobbes in years
11:27 PM zmaddie: hobbes is very important in the foundation of advanced capitalism
me: man is inherently evil to him, right?
or flawed
or nature is flawed
zmaddie: not evil, self-interested
me: ah yeah thats it
11:28 PM eh owell its not that big a deal anyway, im just submitting it for bard papers, not for a class or anything
zmaddie: self-interest to hobbes is often evil because society represses it...so hobbes' solution is to promote self-interests within certain systems of law etc.,
which for capitalists
turns into actively promoting self-interests with the goal of elevating society to a "natural" equilibrium that is the sum of individual market decisions
11:29 PM to destroy regulatory systems and such...nietzsche fits in here
capitalism is kind of like the inverse stupid interpretation of hobbes
me: yeah i can see that last point
11:30 PM zmaddie: or the very very very very self-interested interpretation of hobbes
haha
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11:35 PM zmaddie: capitalism is a system where profit growth and accumulation are made by exploitation of labor
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11:30 PM me: nietzsche was big in the essay, although i dont reference him by name, but obviously he is opposed to any kind of determinism, be it scientific or religous or anything
11:31 PM ha philosophy jokes...love it
zmaddie: right...but nietzsche in an anti-capitalist interpretation would qualify under your definition as determinist....his overman ideas etc., are logical deterministic outcome of individualism and self-created meaning
me: maybe you should just skim the essay so you know what im talking about, its only 1500 words or something
11:33 PM yeah but they are not deterministic in the sense of "pre"-determinism but rather in the sense of self-determinism, i think
zmaddie: right
but if you have an entier society predicated on self-determinism...you get predetermined results of capitalism a la marx, weber, etc.,
so iguess that's where i see the link
11:34 PM me: i dont know, bc now i am wondering what the definition of capitalism itself is
i dont define it in my essay
11:36 PM zmaddie: but anyway...the way that capitalism allows people to let themselves become exploited
11:37 PM is to embed values and gives promises of individualism, hard work, progress, expansion of individual potential etc.,
11:38 PM capitalism must essentially make people self-interested, otherwise they won't be easily coerced into their own exploitation
me: yeah, well i understand that def and it is basically my def
zmaddie: ok
11:39 PM well you have your battle with determinism there then
but let me read what you've written
and i can be more helpful
11:40 PM me: but for me it is basically the economic philosophy that governs the worldview of societies that are advancing tecnologically and information-wise faster than previously i would say
zmaddie: information is just a priveleged form of capital at the moment, it could be something else later on
don't forget that history regresses as often as it progresses
11:41 PM me: yeah
haha
yeah
11:43 PM i also dont think i agree with some of the stuff you said about nietzsche linking nietzsche to adam smith
i dont think nietzsche was very political or historical in his outlook at all
and opposed people who became too engrossed in history and politics
11:44 PM zmaddie: yes, but the situation in which nietzsche was living very much informed his own ability to think...his thoughts are very much a product of his time
particularly of increasingly instability of nations
increasing*
11:45 PM anyway i think what you've written is good
its certainly very thought provoking, and its convincing
11:46 PM me: probably a bit too casual/poetic/artsy for your type of essay though im guessing...
11:47 PM zmaddie: i mean i wouldn't be able to write something like this for my classes
but i'm assuming that this is for a literature or philosophy sort of thing
me: i was just tired of senior project but wanted to write something nonfiction
zmaddie: oh this isn't even for class
me: yeah bard papers is "art and lit" publication
zmaddie: well i think
more broadly
11:48 PM you can say that all ideologies are deterministic in nature
but that capitalism breeds certain degrees of paranoia and alienation
because its discourse is one of isolation and alienation
me: yeah exactly, at least on the last twp points
11:49 PM zmaddie: to put it another way....capitalism creates identities of distinction and not cohesion....which means that some people are "inside" and others are "outside"
fear becomes easier when you're peripheral to everyone else
11:50 PM i guess you could stretch it out further
me: yeah, i dont know if the more socialist states that have existed are much different for the individual though
11:51 PM there is maybe even more isolation/alienation
zmaddie: and say that paranoia is the "outsider" experience of individualism, whereas anxiety is the insider
one is acceptable
one is not
to society that is
me: hmm i dont know, i dont juxtapose the two alot, more use them in tandem, but get what you are saying
11:53 PM zmaddie: i think it might be an interesting approach because both are somewhat resistant to "work hard be happy freedom discourse" but because anxiety restrains itself...is not free to render one savage...it is more acceptable...its kind of resistant and hegemonic
whereas paranoia is out and out abnormal to society because it is vocalized and manifested as terrifying
11:54 PM makes one feel more than just worry....it makes one feel menaced
it makes you feel irrational in a rational world and its not as easily dismissed
11:55 PM i guess i should clarify that anxiety is a bit of a contradiction in its departure from standard discourse and its compliance to it....and in the manner that it is free and normal to express or feel anxiety despite discourses that one should not feel that way
whereas paranoia is not an option in a "free" society premised on freedom as rationality dictates
11:57 PM i no longer have any idea what the fuck i'm talking about haha
me: yeah i am lost
11:58 PM we both got excited about what we were talking about and then forgot what we were talking haha
zmaddie: ok let me back up
major ideologies in society: freedom, rationality, individualism
those lead to happiness, ideally
11:59 PM anxiety goes against this a bit, but is not severe enough to repress because it is to a certain extent rational
paranoia, however, must be repressed because its irrational
12:00 AM paranoia marks the outsider from the alienated insider
12:01 AM paranoia is kind of a socially positioned diagnosis....you can't be paranoid without structures of isolated individualism, helplessness, and creeping irrational fear
anxiety is nothing more than worry and concern that one's promised outcomes will not be delivered by structural ideology/narrative
me: yeah i think i see what you are saying, but you might be dealing in abstractions too much for me to fully understand; the "paranoid" mind and the "anxious" mind would prbly be equally susceptible to totalitarian worldviews i would say
12:02 AM totalitarian worldview here most likely defined in relation to determinism
zmaddie: yeah i think that's plausible...but on the other hand not every citizen under the third reich had to be paranoid like hitler to support his missions
in fact
they allied to him
me: no but they were prbly anxious about communists taking over
12:03 AM or economic turmoil
zmaddie: because they felt that their deterministic identity narratives were not being met...they were anxious about their future and chose the leadership of a paranoid psycho fuck head
i think we're agreeing
me: yeah i think so too haha
12:04 AM the ussr is a bit different
bc that was a more violent/less democratic takeover
zmaddie: i mean i think the point is that anxiety dances a strange dance between teh paranoid irrational absurd whatever and the sometimes failing normative social narratives of the way of life
12:05 AM me: basically
zmaddie: sure but the rise of the soviet union was still a populist movement
even if it was not a democratic one
me: yeah but i think the type of anxiety/paranoia there was much more extreme and "existential" than in germany
12:06 AM like getting your head blown off right away and shit
12:07 AM zmaddie: sure but in teh soviety union paranoia and anxiety were still over needs potentially not being met, violence obviously, as well as the fact that a degree of conformity was cause for paranoia in people accustomed to different narratives
me: civiil war, etc
yeah, still not sure if there is a clear distincition between anxiety and parnoia though
12:08 AM zmaddie: i'll put it this way
in the soviet union
you didn't have paranoia about getting shot/arrested if you were resistant, you had legitimate cause for concern
12:09 AM you would, however, be paranoid if you otherwise had no reason to fear the state
i mean if you had no reason at all
not otherwise
me: no i mean the white army and the red army had control in various areas, which were contstanly changing, so "concern" was almost always prevalent
zmaddie: certainl
12:10 AM me: whereas in germany a lot of jews didnt even realize they were fucked until hiddenburg or whoever died
zmaddie: and here you have a situation where paranoia is neither outside nor inside because any narrative of determinism is lost by uncertainty
it all becomes anxiety if there is no predestined path
or to put it another way
if no narrative can claim dominance
12:12 AM then you have anarchy...not in the political formation....but paranoia is the norm in a period of tumult
when that period is stabilized, new paranoia becomes an outside phenomenon relative to the stabilizing force that needs to be suppressed
12:13 AM i guess teh distinction i'd make...and this is true of basically all definitions of insanity
12:14 AM is that the definition are relative to what would be considered "abnormal" to the rest of society
whereas anxiety doesn't really have the connotation of being abnormal
12:15 AM so what constitutes paranoid thoughts and behavior will always change with what the normal mode of society is
and so will anxiety, but paranoid is waht remains beyond the acceptable standard
12:16 AM me: in my essay, i basically define paranoia as a strict fear of a higher power (or lack thereof), and anxiety as a itching uneasiness of a higher power (or lack therof)
zmaddie: so say the ussr privleges one kind of rational thought over the westernr ideal...their definitions of paranoid might eb a little different
me: yeah
thats cool stuff to think about too
12:17 AM zmaddie: and here's kind of the kicker or icing on the cake
me: like a soviet citizen's parnoia was prbly much more grounded in concrete reality and shit
12:18 AM zmaddie: one can only be resistant or in this case aware of one's own paranoia based on one's own understanding of what normal is....so in this way...even if its outside, even in the outside person its informed by inside ideology
so someone who's paranoid in the u.s. in high school might have sentiments that everyone is talking behind their back and hates them etc., because it is not normal for them to be alone or something
12:19 AM but it changes based on one's position relative to the dominant power position
12:20 AM me: yeah the concepts of "outsider" and "insider" are good, i might use them if i decide to write a followup that is more social and political
zmaddie: yeah
just some intellectual fun
me: yeah i feel sometimes that this is all a waste of time
12:21 AM like i talk to friends and family who are going to law school or working for big business
seems like they will have the power to do anything about anythijg
zmaddie: well...take a bit of heart...major revisions to mental care have been made with the realization that diagnoses of insanity is based relative to cultural norms...they've made it a lot harder to inter people because of it
12:22 AM are based*
so these kind of debates are not just meaningless all the time
12:23 AM but yeah....if ou have power its easy to mmake more
at the end of the day, all power is capital, whether you're ina capitalist system or not
me: yeah, what are you doing for work over the summer or are you going straight to n.o.? i think i will be writing copy for an ad agency actually hahah
zmaddie: that's awesome
i think i'm going to n.o. in early june
me: o word
12:24 AM are you going to be teaching primary or secondary school?
zmaddie: i may not be teaching
but i don't know which i'd be teaching if i am accepted
12:25 AM me: ah ok
is shakespeer slow as hell for you too?
i have been trying to download movies for the past hour and everything is stalling
12:26 AM zmaddie: i haven't been trying
12:31 AM hey do you listren to galaxie 500?
me: never heard of it
fuck i lost all that chat
zmaddie: oh no
i'll email it to you
me: i wanted to save it too look over
zmaddie: how can i send this to you?
i can't copy and paste it
12:32 AM me: nevermind
it got sent to my inbox
zmaddie: oh
ok
me: automatically
weird
zmaddie: i did figure out how to copy and paste it
12:33 AM me: word, i might post it on my blog, it would be ironic or something maybe
zmaddie: haha
go for it
12:34 AM me: posting it now
12:35 AM also, off the record, i was going to mention to you earlier in the convo, but we got carried away, ---------------------------------------------------------
hope you dont care a large deal, hopefully
12:36 AM zmaddie: i don't give a shit man
---------------------
me: ok thats whati figured haha
prbly just anxiety, or paranoia
zmaddie: hahaha
no don't sweat it man
------------- haha
12:37 AM me: cool
ha
thanks
zmaddie: oh man
i think this galaxie 500 shit is awesome
just from the first couple of songs i heard
12:39 AM me: whatd you do over break in general, did you hang out with any bardians
zmaddie: i mean i was mostly just in new orleans with moira hanging out
i saw the bard kids for like...5 seconds on my last day there
but
i went to a couple good concerts
12:40 AM generally had a lot of fun
how about you?
12:41 AM me: i think i talked to somebody over break who randomly knows you, maybe im confusing stuff though
hung out on long island and in the city with nicole and then came back up here to post-apocalyptic bard
zmaddie: ah
who'd you talk to?
me: i have no idea
12:42 AM actually it might have just been a tao lin/sarah schneider thing or something, bc you know here i think
although i dont think i talked to tao lin over break
owell
zmaddie: yeah it could be sarah
was it berkeley by chance?
she's a friend of sarah's
me: i dont know
12:43 AM or it might have been a long islander who is from pittsburg or something fuck i dont know
zmaddie: hmmm
i'm so curious haha
12:44 AM me: yeah
owell
12:45 AM i want to visit the andy warhol museum this summer, since it will maybe be my last extended period in oihio, if you are in pitts id like to see it with you
or is it even worth seeing?
i think ive heard good shit
zmaddie: depends on what's being shown
but generally yes it's pretty good
me: o they dont have permanent exhibits?
zmaddie: yeah if i'm in pittsburgh you should definitely come by for a while
they do
and those are definitely pretty neat
12:46 AM but not quite worth the price of admission unless there's something good on temporary exhibition as well
me: i think i like his stuff from the early mid 50s and mid-late 70s more than the pop art shit these days
prbly just think its cliche or something
12:47 AM zmaddie: yeah
wlel most of it at the musuem is the pop art stuff
me: damn
youve seen dia beacon right?
12:48 AM they have good later stuff by him
12:49 AM zmaddie: yeah
dia beacon is my favorite museum probably
12:50 AM me: i know its such a diamond in the rough kind of
people get excited about all the ones in nyc but just a quick train ride up is dia beacon
12:51 AM zmaddie: yeah i think it's a lot better than moma or the new museum or anything like that
just a great space and a killer permanent collection
12:53 AM me: prbly more accessible to people like us though than your everyday person though
to my parents it would maybe just seem weird and stupid
zmaddie: yeah maybe
though i find shit at the new museum particularly stupid and weird
12:54 AM everything i've seen there literally looks like a big blob of shit
whether its suspended from teh ceiling or wall or lying there on the floor
12:55 AM me: i havent been there
been to moma and met in the city, none of the other ones though really
cleveland art museum is actually prty good for a mainstream museum
zmaddie: yeah it's great
huge collection of diego rivera
12:57 AM me: did you work at the warhol? didnt you work at some museum
zmaddie: i worked at the mattress factory
it's an installation art museum
12:58 AM if you come up we can definitely go to both museums on teh same day
they're pretty close by each other and are affiliated with one another
i think the mattress factory is probably cooler than the warhol
1:00 AM me: i think i would just want to go to mattress factory then
the warhol museum sounds underwhelming
zmaddie: i mean i think it is unless you really really like andy warhol
1:01 AM depending on what the temp exhibit is
me: no i mean i like him, but i wouldnt consider him a favorite
zmaddie: yeah
then it's probably not gonna be that exciting
1:03 AM me: why havent you ever submittied to the forum
have you been published in any bard things
zmaddie: nope haven't submitted anything
i'm too lazy
1:04 AM also i can't write anything interesting at the short length i think they want
1:05 AM me: the sociology/philosophy/whatever jounral was like 1 pg min and 30 pg limit
sounded stupid though
zmaddie: yeah i mean
the most i could compel myself to do would be submit something i had written for class
but that'd probably just be boring for most people
1:06 AM me: yeah
1:07 AM what is your sen proj on anyway
i forgot
zmaddie: neoliberalism's effects on urban development using pittsburgh as the example
1:08 AM me: "neoliberalism" is this continental/intellectual jargon i always forget
what is it again
1:09 AM zmaddie: its basically a set of policies that made capitalism even more ruthless
me: like is it close to just mainstream american politics or conservatism or what
zmaddie: and basically allowed for globalization
its...not really conservative or liberal
me: yeah
zmaddie: but more of the international push to deregulate financial capital
resulting in massive changes in where goods are produced and where money is accumulated
me: what presidents would you say were neoliberal-wise, in terms of the past 50 years
or are have they all been
1:10 AM zmaddie: more or less all of them until this healthcare thing
but the big ones were nixon, reagan, bush, clinton, and bush
me: yeah i always talk shit about clinton here at bard and get shot down, think too many kids grew up worshipping him or something
also
1:11 AM he was victim of political circumstances/climate that he couldnt really control
zmaddie: yeah that's fair
that's kind of part of a critique of neoliberalism
1:12 AM is that it makes the state more dependent on private capital
and kind of neutralizes the ability for the state to defend the interests of its constituents
instead making the state a support system for business
1:13 AM me: youre not really down with neoliberalism at all are you?
zmaddie: nope
me: my roommate last year, he was big into your kind of stuff, he talked about it alot too
zmaddie: yeah
who was he?
me: balint
1:14 AM he was that hungarian exxhange student
zmaddie: ah
yeah i mean
critiqueing neoliberalism is semi-fashionable right now but most people don't really know what the fuck they're talking about who do it
1:16 AM me: i mean he was pretty hardcore intellectual, he was also really into civil disobedience and stuff, think he was legit, but yeah i know what you mean
zmaddie: oh yeah i'm not saying he didn't know
i'm saying that generally a lot of people who do it don't do it well
1:17 AM me: like the seattle protests and wto protests and all that shit
that was anti-neoliberal right?
zmaddie: yeah exactly
well some of them were anti-neoliberal
the big problem with those
1:18 AM was that it just became this kind of completely hodgepodge of sort of anti-who knows what
like a lot of stupid yuppie liberals who are actually totally neoliberal etc.,
it was interestingly very much an effect of neoliberalism haha
the protests....people couldn't organize or have any strong affiliations to come together against anything
1:19 AM it was basically every moderate leftist up to super hardcore anarchists just causing shit for the sake of causing shit
1:20 AM kind of damaged the image of anti-globalism in my opinion
1:21 AM me: yeah i think i am a moderate leftist
1:22 AM watched a good documentary or realistic depicition film of the wto seattle protests
some of those people were idiots
but in general they were with it
zmaddie: yeah i dunno
i think the situation is hopeless unless it gets violent
me: yeah have you read noah cicero?
1:23 AM zmaddie: like more violent than that
me: his new book the insurgent is along those lines i think
zmaddie: yeah
i dunno
me: h/o ill link you
zmaddie: k
me: http://www.blatt.cz/noah_cicero_insurgent.php
1:24 AM fuck maybe wrong link
http://www.blatt.cz/noah_cicero_insurgent.php
eh same one, should work maybe
1:26 AM dunno if the title character actually revolts or just metapysically revolts
im gonna hit the sack
think you just did
piece
14 minutes
1:41 AM me: checking out galaxie 500....slowcore....nice